Amna Nawaz:
Federal immigration officials today defended their officers before Congress amid public outcry after two fatal shootings in Minneapolis last month. The heads of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, U.S. Customs and Border Protection, and U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services appeared before the House Homeland Security Committee.
Among the questions they faced, whether the tactics used by their agents during arrests and deportations run afoul of the Constitution.
Lisa Desjardins has our report.
Lisa Desjardins:
On Capitol Hill, those in charge of President Trump’s immigration enforcement called to account.
Rep. Andrew Garbarino (R-NY):
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give…
Lisa Desjardins:
Immediately facing bipartisan review for recent conduct.
Rep. Andrew Garbarino:
This is all unacceptable and preventable.
Rep. Bennie Thompson (D-MS):
The Department of Homeland Security has the blood of American citizens on its hand.
Lisa Desjardins:
The House Homeland Security hearing was the first since the fatal shootings of U.S. citizens Alex Pretti and Renee Good by federal immigration agents. Both killings are under investigation.
Rep. Bennie Thompson:
I ask that the committee observe a moment of silence.
Lisa Desjardins:
The officials defended their personnel in general and pointed at those opposing them.
Rodney Scott, Commissioner, U.S. Customs and Border Protection: Our officers and agents are increasingly facing an unprecedented level of aggressive interference and intimidation when executing the laws that you have asked them to enforce.
Todd Lyons, Acting Director, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement: In fiscal year 2025, death threats against ICE personnel increased more than 8000 percent. Assaults on officers have skyrocketed over 1400 percent. One officer in Minnesota had his finger bitten off by a protester egged on by elected officials characterizing our officers as Gestapo or secret police.
Lisa Desjardins:
But Democrats insisted that’s the effect, not the cause…
Woman:
Get your hands off of me.
Lisa Desjardins:
… that immigration officials are making things unsafe.
Rep. Delia Ramirez (D-IL):
You have used your power to perpetrate great evil. And it’s about time you answered this committee for the lawlessness that you have empowered and defended in your testimony.
Rep. Seth Magaziner (D-RI):
All right, I’d like you to view this video.
Lisa Desjardins:
Rhode Island’s Seth Magaziner showed a video of a family being pepper-sprayed in their car.
Man:
You OK, Mama? You OK?
Rep. Seth Magaziner:
Is it proper procedure to aim pepper spray into the window of a moving vehicle?
Rodney Scott:
I’m not familiar — I don’t have all the details on this. It’s an ongoing investigation.
Rep. Seth Magaziner:
I’m not asking about…
Rodney Scott:
But to answer your specific question…
Rep. Seth Magaziner:
Is it proper procedure?
Rodney Scott:
… you try to avoid that. No, it’s not.
Lisa Desjardins:
But many Republicans defended ICE and Border Patrol agents, with Oklahoma’s Josh Brecheen showing photos of violent migrants detained.
Rep. Josh Brecheen (R-OK):
To all those who are second-guessing the reactionary moments to the law enforcement who have to respond in real time, go to the Department of Homeland Security Web site and Google your area and look at who’s being picked up in your backyard. That’s how we recenter this conversation to truth. I want your children protected.
Lisa Desjardins:
Ranking Democrat Bennie Thompson countered with the overall numbers.
Rep. Bennie Thompson:
Contrary to the administration’s claim, only 14 percent of those arrested by ICE had violent criminal records.
Lisa Desjardins:
The heads of ICE and Border Patrol insisted their agents are fully trained, though ICE has sped up that training, but Democrats kept pushing.
Rep. Julie Johnson (D-TX):
I’m sure that there are many, many fine agents who are doing everything they can to exercise their duty lawfully. But the problem is, there are agents who are not. And the power that they have is gone to their head. And they use that power unconstitutionally.
Lisa Desjardins:
Representative Dan Goldman of New York:
Rep. Dan Goldman (D-NY):
I have a simple suggestion. If you don’t want to be called a fascist regime or secret police, then stop acting like one.
Lisa Desjardins:
To calls for action, Congressman Eric Swalwell asked for specific words.
Rep. Eric Swalwell (D-CA):
Mr. Lyons, will you apologize to the family of Renee Good for being called a domestic terrorist by the president and his leadership?
Todd Lyons:
No, sir.
Rep. Eric Swalwell:
Why not?
Todd Lyons:
Sir, I welcome the opportunity to speak to the family in private.
Lisa Desjardins:
Later, Lyons expressed sympathy.
Todd Lyons:
Sir, the loss of any life is unacceptable. And the heart — my heart, prayers and thoughts go out to anyone who — tragically losing his life, especially a child, since I suffered personal loss in my life. But I’m not going to comment on an ongoing investigation.
Lisa Desjardins:
Republicans said Democrats are to blame for inflamed rhetoric.
Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC):
We would not be having this hearing if the Democrats attacked illegal immigration with the same vigor that they’re attacking law enforcement and the men at this table.
Lisa Desjardins:
But the hearing was about how lawmakers see the situation now.
Rep. Shri Thanedar (D-MI):
Your agencies have lost the trust of the American people, with millions taking to the streets.
Lisa Desjardins:
From those leading the immigration crackdown, a consistent line, admitting no mistakes and asking for backup.
Rodney Scott:
I think the rhetoric and the back-and-forth, the politicizing of law enforcement in general detracts from the general morale of our personnel.
Rep. Andrew Garbarino:
This committee stands adjourned.
Lisa Desjardins:
The hearing will echo into another debate over DHS funding, which runs out Friday night.
Amna Nawaz:
And Lisa Desjardins joins me now.
Lisa, you were covering that hearing in the room. You have been talking to lawmakers about these debates over ICE reforms and DHS funding as well. Where do those stand?
Lisa Desjardins:
OK, there are two trains here that are connected. So let’s talk about those. Let me give you some basic bottom lines.
First, the ICE reform train, that right now, there are real negotiations happening, largely between the White House and especially Senate Democrats. However, bottom line, I can’t see a deal coming together this week. It’s complicated.
Now, the train that’s connected to that, of course, is DHS funding. That’s the second thing. Where are we with that? We are in limbo. I cannot tell you right now if there will be funding for homeland security on Saturday. That is right after the deadline ends.
Now, part of the thinking here is that Democrats, talking to them today, they told me in the Senate they actually seem to be digging in. They seem more firm, more resolute on the idea that they need real reform. They need codified changes in law.
So they say, to get to a short-term bill, which is what we need to keep DHS funded, they need a real negotiation. They need more offers from Republicans. Some of them, like Catherine Cortez Masto, say they want that serious offer from the White House.
Sen. Catherine Cortez Masto (D-NV):
We are asking our colleagues in the White House to work with us. It’s common sense. Work with us. Unfortunately, we’re not seeing that. So I will say this. I am not going to support a C.R.
Lisa Desjardins:
But as happens on this usual waterslide toward a government funding shutdown or breakdown, we are hearing from those in the majority, in this case Republicans, that they need to get together on a short-term funding deal now.
Here’s John Thune.
Sen. John Thune (R-SD):
These federal employees at TSA and other agencies shouldn’t be held hostage by the Democrats in potentially another government shutdown. So the best way to avoid that is to strike a deal. And I think that means we got to keep people at the table.
Lisa Desjardins:
A lot of people think that the key to unlock all of this is President Trump himself. How much does he get involved? Clearly, I can report, and this is from senior White House sources too, that they do want to get to a deal. Can they do it and when, that’s the question.
Amna Nawaz:
Let me ask you about one piece of this I know you have been reporting on, and you have laid out what Democrats want to see here in the way of guardrails around DHS conduct. What do you hear from Republicans about that?
Lisa Desjardins:
Right. They want something too.
I think there’s broad agreement among Republicans that they want some way to have local and state officials, especially in blue states, cooperate more with ICE. How do you codify that? It’s not clear. One person who has an idea about that is Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina. He actually would like to make it a crime, a federal crime, for local officials who resist working with ICE who have what he calls sanctuary cities.
A mayor, for example, could be charged with a federal crime. Now, there’s no question that is a constitutional question about state versus federal power. And I also don’t think there’s a chance that idea could pass in Congress any time soon. It’s just to say there’s a conversation among Republicans about cooperating on the local level.
There are also Republicans who would like to see ICE reformed and want to see it in law. One of those is Senator Rand Paul. He chairs the House Homeland Security Committee. I talked to him today. He told me that he does see civil liberties at stake here and he wants changes in law.
Amna Nawaz:
And it is Senator Paul who is going to be heading the next hearing with ICE and CBP officials. That’s on Thursday, I believe. Did you talk to him about what he took away from today’s hearing?
Lisa Desjardins:
I did.
This was important, because I told him really — he hadn’t seen it yet. He’s reviewing the tape now. I said, they weren’t admitting any mistakes. And he said, if they do not admit errors in my hearing, they’re in for a very tough time.
And more than that, Amna, he said it would be helpful if the Trump administration would admit publicly that ICE has made mistakes and that they want reform, because he says that’s what they’re doing behind the scenes, and that would help the negotiations overall.
Amna Nawaz:
So, another hearing ahead on Thursday on these two trains, as you laid them out, on potential ICE reforms and DHS funding. What are you watching for next?
Lisa Desjardins:
OK, first of all, let’s talk about what a shutdown would mean, because that has to do with the incentive for everyone to come to a deal.
So here’s what we know about a DHS shutdown. First of all, as we have said before, ICE and CBP are funded because of funding passed last summer. FEMA has reserves to last a little while. Overall, though, 95 percent of this agency of Homeland Security would have to stay on the job, very few furloughs. All of those folks would stay on the job without pay.
They are, most of them, being paid this week, so it would take a week-and-a-half before people would miss some pay. But that’s not out of the realm of possibility here, depending on what happens in the next couple of days. I will also say this. We have covered so many of these tough negotiations.
There are more ways out of this one than I have seen in a while. So there is reason for hope that they can figure out a deal. One of them is that a lot of lawmakers leave on Thursday for the Munich Security Conference, and next week is recess.
Amna Nawaz:
And deadlines really do help to focus the minds sometimes.
Lisa Desjardins, great reporting, as always.
