Amna Nawaz:
The government shutdown will pass the two-week mark tonight after a continuing resolution failed in the Senate once again. Neither side seems close to resuming talks.
For its part, the president’s team posted on social media that it’s — quote — “making every preparation to batten down the hatches and ride out the shutdown.” The White House also threatened to continue laying off federal workers.
Just this past weekend, roughly 1,300 employees at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention received notices that they were fired. Then, as the administration realized it had fired some key staff, reportedly, half of them were reinstated the next day. The whiplash still leaves the agency without many crucial professionals.
To break down the impact, I spoke earlier today with Dr. Nirav Shah. He’s former principal deputy director of the CDC, now a visiting professor at Colby College.
Dr. Shah, welcome to the “News Hour.” Thank you for joining us.
Dr. Nirav Shah, Former CDC Principal Deputy Director:
Thank you for having me, Amna.
Amna Nawaz:
So, from the folks you talked to and from what you have seen, for so many people at the CDC to have been fired and then rehired, even with these lingering threats of more continued layoffs to come, what kind of impact is that having on folks at the CDC?
Dr. Nirav Shah:
It has an impact in two ways.
The first is, this sort of whiplash, with being fired one day, rehired the next, it just — it suggests that there’s managerial incompetence at play. But the second thing that it does, particularly for the staff, is, it’s a morale killer.
Morale at the CDC was already exceedingly low. Indeed, not more than two months ago, the CDC was literally attacked by a gunman who fired over 500 rounds at the building. That alone would be sufficient to kill the morale of any organization. But now this whiplash of firings and rehiring means that morale at the agency is exceptionally low. That has implications for all of us and our safety.
Amna Nawaz:
When you look at where folks have been fired and not rehired, is our understanding, among those staffers are people at an agency known as ASPR, I believe, that works with the intelligence agencies to prepare for, protect against things like pandemics and weaponized pathogens.
What do we know about the impact of a team like that being fired?
Dr. Nirav Shah:
ASPR, which focuses on strategic preparedness for bioterrorism and biodefense threats, is really the connective tissue that links up a number of different agencies, not just within Health and Human Services, but across the federal government, to make sure that we are ready to detect a potential biological threat and then respond to it in unison.
It’s not a large entity, but it’s an important one. It’s the nucleus of a lot of our work. And so any reductions in force to such a small but important group, again, leave us all less safe.
Amna Nawaz:
There are a number of other agencies where we saw some firings, the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration among them.
Are there other teams that stand out in particular to you as very dangerous or potentially harmful? And, also, how should the rest of the country look at this? Is this something that’s going to show up in their lives tomorrow or this week?
Dr. Nirav Shah:
The impact of them may not be seen for days, weeks, months, even years, but when that impact is materialized, it will be in the midst of a crisis or a catastrophe, when we are the last ones to know about a devastating biological threat, when all of our foreign adversaries have had weeks or months of lead time to be ready, and we are the ones who are scrambling.
The worst part about all of these cuts is that the impact of them won’t be felt until there’s an emergency. And then we will all be looking around, wondering why we were the last to know. It will mean that the way that the health of the American public is protected for the foreseeable future is through state and local governments, not necessarily through the federal government.
Amna Nawaz:
Can I put to you what we have heard from the president about some of these firings? Because he’s repeatedly characterized these as firings around Democratic programs or Democratic priorities. What’s your response to that? How do you look at that language?
Dr. Nirav Shah:
That is the wrong way to characterize public health programs that keep us all safe. There’s no virus out there, there’s no deadly pathogen out there that only goes after folks of one political party or another.
When the next biological threat comes, it will attack everybody irrespective of their political preferences. And, therefore, the systems that keep us safe are not Democratic or Republican or red or purple or anything in between.
Amna Nawaz:
Dr. Shah, longer term, when you look at the future of the CDC, for people who are being fired now or even rehired, are they likely to stay at the agency? Are the things that are being broken down now, are they able to be built back up later?
Dr. Nirav Shah:
They will be able to be built back up, but, unfortunately, I fear that it will take a generation to do so.
The talent and the career scientists who have been let go, again, these are not political appointees. These are career public servant scientists. They have other opportunities, owing to their excellence and their education. And those opportunities will be found elsewhere, perhaps in industry, perhaps in academia.
And this is not just at the CDC.It’s at the NIH and at the FDA and SAMHSA. Those scientists will take a generation, if not more, to be lured back or for the next generation of scientists to come up. What it means specifically in an era of increasing bioterror threats is that other countries and foreign adversaries will have a leg up on us whenever that next threat emerges.
We will be the ones behind, when we should be the ones in front.
Amna Nawaz:
That is Dr. Nirav Shah, formerly of the CDC, now with Colby College in Maine, joining us tonight.
Dr. Shah, thank you. Good to speak with you.
Dr. Nirav Shah:
Thank you for having me.
